Vote Fraud Redux

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Toolsmith
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Vote Fraud Redux

Non-Citizen Legal immigrants have been illegally voting in Pennsylvania for years...

http://dailysignal.com/2017/10/25/noncitizen-immigrants-voted-illegally-...

It appears that Motor-Voter is to blame...

Claudius
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The AP article that your

The AP article that your article cites says it has been 544 ballots cast illegally out of more than 93 million ballots in elections spanning 18 years. One in every 172,000 ballots cast. Oh no!

Bruce Libby
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How many illegal votes are

How many illegal votes are acceptable to you ?

Claudius
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Well certainly more than 0

Well certainly more than 0.0005 percent of votes cast. What they found is statistically negligible.

Look, republicans are interested in restricting votes from poorer minority voters who tend to vote democratic. Stories like these are an attempt to gin up fear of illegal immigrants voting in elections. They pass laws that do things like curb same-day registration or make it more difficult to vote early or on Sunday.

I believe that people who really value what is great about this country would be doing all they can to encourage as many citizens as possible to participate in elections.

Ugenetoo
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BS

BS
NO illegal votes are acceptable.
The one fraudulent ballot cast in any election is the one that cancels mine.
Democrats trying to sweep voter fraud under the table with the hopes that their base will grow in numbers is the real problem.

Bruce Libby
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Claudius

Claudius
You did not answer he question.

Ugenetoo
Answered the question.

johnw
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Interestingly voter fraud is

Interestingly voter fraud is a non issue for liberals,but hanging chads were........

Claudius
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@Bruce Libby

@Bruce Libby

You are right. I didn't answer the question. Let me explain why.

Ugenetoo is right that cancelling .0005 of votes over 18 years is wrong and illegal. But also et's be clear that noncitizen immigrants who register to vote face penalties including deportation and up to five years in prison.

But the real question for me is whether the scale of the issue is worth the response that a lot of people (mostly republicans) are advocating. Many people believe that the proper response is to limit the ability for many people to vote in order to deal with this statistically negligible issue.

So I think this issue really reveals a lot about your values as an American. Either you believe that voting should be made widely available to as many people as possible. Or you think we should limit it.

Should we have early voting or Sunday voting or same day registration? Or we should accept that many people will not be able to participate in democracy in order to deal with this issue?

What do you think? I believe your answer to this will reveal a lot about who you are and what your values are.

I think that it is interesting that I hear from many conservative voices that we should not limit rights in response to illegal behavior. For example, I've often heard we will just have to accept mass shootings because the 2nd Amendment cannot be limited. So why is this different?

FYI: Trump won Pennsylvania over Democrat Hillary Clinton by 44,000 votes out of some 6.1 million ballots cast. It’s not clear how many of the 544 questioned ballots may have been cast in that race.

Toolsmith
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I am always concerned. The

I am always concerned. The biggest breach was a governor in Virginia allowing thousands of prisoners to vote, and doing it so close to the election there was no time for challenge. That's truly dishonest.

And I don't believe that people who don't obey laws should have a voice in choosing the people who make the laws. Improper influence, at the very least.

Melvin Udall
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Playing the stats game is a

Playing the stats game is a worthless distraction.

US Senate positions have turned on a few hundred votes.

More importantly, state legislature votes and municipal votes frequently turn on a handful of votes.

If you live in a college town, check the state of the voter list in the college residence locations, and in particular check the dates.

Then tell me how you catch college kids that vote in two places - their campus town and their home town.

taxfoe
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Aye, Claudius:

Aye, Claudius:

" . . But the real question for me is whether the scale of the issue is worth the response that a lot of people (mostly republicans) are advocating. Many people believe that the proper response is to limit the ability for many people to vote in order to deal with this statistically negligible issue. "

So, the miniscule number of say, elderly African Americans who never had or no longer have access to birth records or other proof of citizenship represent a statistically negligible issue that isn't really worthy of the response afforded to them?

People like you think upside down. Citizenship and access to the ballot are no less important than the title to your car or the deed to your home. Anyone who desires to vote should be ready and willing to prove and defend that right and we should all be vigilant in our defense of the sanctity of our vote and fight any attempt to dilute or negate our vote.

Around the time of Obama's second election, I posted a first hand account of Denver election volunteers prowling low income (read: high concentrations of illegal immigrant) nieghborhoods trading voter registrations for Obama-phone reload cards. Votes for crack-phones. Anything goes!

Mark T. Cenci
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No make it more difficult to

No make it more difficult to vote.

We pass laws to keep unqualified and bad drivers off the roads. We need to keep unqualified and bad voters out of the booths.

Mainelion
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Apparently Claudius, like

Apparently Claudius, like most leftists, believes that minorities who are actually eligible to vote are either too stupid or too shiftless to acquire an ID in order to vote. I do not believe that.

Melvin Udall
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OK, lets examine a very real

OK, lets examine a very real issue regarding election integrity.

Read this article appearing in this week's Bowdoin College campus newspaper, put out by the students.

Should Bowdoin students register to vote in Maine?

As you read it, notice several things; first and foremost this "sentiment:"

“I think it’s really important to register where you feel most passionate about the issues,” said Emma Kane ’18, a leader of the Bowdoin Democrats who is from South Portland, Maine. “If you’re not super passionate about things going on in your home state but something like the Medicaid expansion interests you and you’re passionate about it, absolutely register to vote in Maine.”

Throughout the article, you'll note there is not a single mention of relevant election law regarding residency, registration procedures, or anything else that might contribute to integrity in the election process. A nation of laws? A state of laws? A municipality of laws?

I think not. Instead, we are a "nation, state, and municipality" where feelings are the things that matter most. In other words, "if it feels good, do it" to cite a key mantra of the 60's revolution.

When you read the article, you'll see a link to the campus view of the ballot questions before us. All informed by critical thinking and an adult taxpayer's point of view. At least if you are a Maine People's Alliance bleeder/slug. Just look at who supports Question 4.

Then there's this:

"For the second year in a row, the McKeen Center has stepped in to facilitate voter registration among Bowdoin students. Last year, in the lead up to the 2016 presidential election, the Center registered about 200 Bowdoin students and provided transportation to the polling stations on Election Day."

This is conclusive evidence that the Town Clerk's office has ceded oversight of the registration process and enforcement of applicable law to students and campus staff. Those registration cards, and those of past and future years, will be accepted without question by the Town office, and there is no disciplined way to remove students from the rolls when they graduate.

This is an off year election; chances are the turnout in Brunswick will be in the 3,000 or so range. If you don't think that several hundred college voters can effect the outcome of local elections, like the contested Town Council at large spot, you just aren't willing to face the facts.

Fraud is one thing. Absolute absence of disciplined processes that enforce applicable law are quite another. The gushing sentiment about "everyone should be able to vote, and we should help them do so" is, in this case, far more damaging than "voter fraud."

Good intentions and looking the other way on the details are clearly responsible for untold numbers of erroneous election results, and there is no way to conclusively prove this, especially since we have secret ballots. If you challenge a college voter at the polls, the Democrat lawyer standing duty will threaten to sue you; I've personally had that happen.

Claims that there have been only infinitesimal examples of voter fraud proven are a major distraction from reality.

Matt
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Udall fails to mention that

Udall fails to mention that it is absolutely legal for a student to register to vote in the state they attend school (and live 9 months a year, if not more). Imagine—a person “feeling” investedin the place they live and work! The gaul!

He also fails to mention that campus staff conducting registration must be certified to do so by the town itself.

We must stay true to the “disciplined process” of telling the half-deaf and blind 75 year old volunteer with the three ring binder our name and address!

Melvin Udall
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I should have guessed Mutt is

I should have guessed Mutt is a Bowdoin alum. He has all the smugness, refinement, and critical thinking skills of someone who paid $200,000 for a college diploma and learned nothing for it.

Thanks, Mutt, for the citations substantiating your assertions.

Matt
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Hey doofus, wrong yet again.

Hey doofus, wrong yet again.

I must have missed your “citations.”

Jasper
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Mel was rejected by Bowdoin

Mel was rejected by Bowdoin years ago and had to settle for the less prestigious and lower ranked Rutgers. He's been sucking on them sour grapes since.

Melvin Udall
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Title 21-A: ELECTIONS

Title 21-A: ELECTIONS
Chapter 1: GENERAL PROVISIONS §1 - §33
Chapter 3: VOTER REGISTRATION §101 - §222
Chapter 5: NOMINATIONS §301 - §434
Chapter 7: ELECTION OFFICIALS §501 - §505
Chapter 8: LIMITATION OF TERMS §551 - §554
Chapter 9: CONDUCT OF ELECTIONS §601 - §862
Chapter 11: BALLOT QUESTIONS §901 - §906
Chapter 13: CAMPAIGN REPORTS AND FINANCES §1001 - §1105
Chapter 14: THE MAINE CLEAN ELECTION ACT §1121 - §1128
Chapter 15: APPORTIONMENT §1201 - §1207

http://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/21-A/title21-Ach0sec0.html

=======================================================
Both Mutt and Yesper seem to be grappling with the intersections of their identity as unattractive, straight, classists of white male privilege. likely eurocentric genderists, and educationalists with language bias.

(Thanks to the "Intersecting Axes of Privilege, Domination, and Oppression" published on the web recently.)

Matt
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That’s funny—I was going to

That’s funny—I was going to use the same “citation.”

Mainelion
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The college students aren't

The college students aren't required to register their cars and pay excise tax. Try that as a resident. They get representation without taxation.

Melvin Udall
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Good, Mutt. Could you please

Good, Mutt. Could you please post here the specific passages that prove these points of yours:

Udall fails to mention that it is absolutely legal for a student to register to vote in the state they attend school (and live 9 months a year, if not more). Imagine—a person “feeling” investedin the place they live and work! The gaul!

He also fails to mention that campus staff conducting registration must be certified to do so by the town itself.

Try as I might, I didn't see them in my reading.

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