Idiotic "militia" standoff in Oregon

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Bruce Libby
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Note to Protesters:

Note to Protesters:
When planning siege of Federal land plan for needs.
Mommy is probably busy doing your work and interrupted with your requests !
http://news.yahoo.com/call-supplies-oregon-standoff-enters-second-week-1...

Yep , I want these guys to have millions of acres to take care for !(sar)

Abacus
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They don't want millions of

They don't want millions of acres, they just want their original agreement to be enforced. They don't want the land for themselves, they want the local government to manage it since the BLM obviously isn't.

I think we'd all agree a travesty has been going unchecked for a long time and the BLM has grossly overstepped its bounds, resulting in what you see here.

At what point will you say 'no more'?

Bruce Libby
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I am in full agreement this

I am in full agreement this need to be resolved,the entire issue .
It is the how that matters.

I suspect human nature being what it is , the road to resolution would be a rough one,
during that process .

Does anyone think if the desired resolution is agreed upon the implementation will be quick and smooth ?

How much does he various rights cost the ranchers ?

Rebecca
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Bruce, Is your keyboard

Bruce, Is your keyboard sticking again? You are usually much more careful.

My opinion? We don't trust our own government at this point, why should we expect that of anyone else in the world?

Bruce Libby
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Occupiers look at files:http:

Occupiers look at files:
http://news.yahoo.com/call-supplies-oregon-standoff-enters-second-week-0...

I guess FOIA request wouldn't have been as news worthy.

Spider
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Elian Gonzales.

Elian Gonzales.
Cuban mother takes her small son into the boat to Florida; boat sinks, small son found adrift; rescused; brought ashore and is placed with his uncle….remember that one? Fidel says he wants the boy back…Bill Clinton/Janet Reno/Eric Holder order early morning raid to forcibly remove the small boy at gunpoint cause the uncle deferred in giving up the boy….another idiotic standoff?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/2000-04/26/044r-042600-idx.html

With no excuse of imminent danger to Elian, the administration is arguing that armed intrusion was necessary because, with time running out, the Miami relatives still would not agree to turn him over to his father, as the INS had ordered. "They would agree to nothing," said Holder after the raid. ". . . We were forced into the action we took by the intransigence of that family in Miami."
Second, "that family in Miami" was in fact negotiating in apparent good faith at the very moment of the raid. And these negotiations were in fact progressing toward apparent resolution. The Miami family was considering a proposal to turn Elian over to the Justice Department and to then take part in a transition period in which the Justice Department would, in the words of the final Justice Department offer, "parole Elian Gonzalez into Juan Miguel Gonzalez's care."
At the time of the raid, some backing-and-forthing was still going on, but the Miami relatives had made a series of concessions. No believable explanation has been offered for why they might not have been expected to work through the remaining issues.

Bruce Libby
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Ok Spider bring that one up

Ok Spider bring that one up it is convenient .
By the way is Oregon no longer a part of the US ?

As reported they tore down a fence .
Only question remaining is who will take the bait and who will get eaten by the catch !

But that is what is desired. Gonzalez ,Ruby, Waco they are getting to be old and worn
rhetoric.

Spider
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Information, its just

Information, its just information regarding the culture of a government organization: BLM. Draw your own conclusions…..

http://www.livestockweekly.com/papers/03/11/20/whlwyoblm.asp

WORLAND, Wyo. — More than 100 ranchers protested outside the U.S. Bureau of Land Management's office this month, venting their frustrations with the Worland district office.

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/news/58394443-78/blm-lov...

Public Enemy No. 1 for rural Utah sheriffs just happens to be a fellow peace officer: Dan Love, the Bureau of Land Management's special agent in charge.
Elected law enforcement officers from Nephi to Blanding call him an arrogant and dishonest bully who has little regard for local authority and dodges accountability, derailing a collaborative approach to police work on the state's federal lands.
Love reportedly just laughed when Garfield County Sheriff James "Danny" Perkins relayed ranchers' complaints about federal officers removing plastic feed tubs from the range and threatening the ranchers with litter citations
.

http://www.parkerpioneer.net/news/article_a8d69c59-d0f6-5078-b557-1b8f5f...

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/bundy-ranch-rory-reid-harry-reid/2014/0...

In addition to the county acreage, the federal Bureau of Land Management at one time was looking at BLM property under dispute with cattle rancher Cliven Bundy. The BLM is headed by former Harry Reid senior policy adviser Neil Kornz.

According to BizPac Review, BLM documents indicate that the federal property for which Bundy claims grazing rights were under consideration by a solar energy company. Those documents have since been removed from BLM's website, but BizPac quotes from one of them:

"Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle."

"Trespass cattle" is a reference to Bundy's herd.

Bruce Libby
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OK BLM is bad. Agreed.

OK BLM is bad. Agreed.
There is a whole mess of wrong in this situation.

Repeating all the wrongs and past wrongs haven't seemed to accomplish much.
Particularly the one that aren't directly related to Oregon and BLM etc..

Ugenetoo
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When you have exhausted all

When you have exhausted all the avenues to give this issue the light of day, what exactly would YOU do, Bruce?

IOW, in their shoes, what would you do different?

Bruce Libby
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Has all the avenues been

Has all the avenues been exhausted ??
I find it strange that few are mentioned .

To answer your question,anything I could ,except breaking law , which apparently this has devolved to
and it probably is going to get worse.

Like it or not this is a situation where the issue becomes secondary to the actions of those involved.

Rebecca
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Curiouser and curiouser. (To

Curiouser and curiouser. (To quote Alice in Wonderland) This could become its own TV series.

.......................................................

Sheriff to Oregon militants: ‘Go home‘

The sheriff of this small community has a short, unmistakable message for the militants occupying a complex of federal buildings southeast of town.

“Go home.”

During a news conference that lasted only about a minute Monday afternoon, Harney County Sheriff David Ward read from prepared statements condemning the group led by the sons of controversial Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy. (link)

Sheriff Ward took a highly adversarial position to the plight of the Hammonds, and continues to make a loud call for Aamon Bundy to step-down and discontinue the ongoing protest at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge.

By all accounts Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward wants this story out of public visibility ASAP.

We might have just discovered why.

A David Ward formerly worked for the Federal Bureau of Land Management and appears to have actually been a witness against the Hammond family in the ridiculous federal terrorism trial back in 2012.

From affidavits and court transcript records you find the following

For all the story to this point in time:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/10/another-unbelievable-upda...

Bruce Libby
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So did Sheriff Ward if the

So did Sheriff Ward if the same , break any laws ?

The Hammonds', with all the ability of the various supporters, they haven't been able to find a lawyer who could get
their situation overturned etc.etc. ?

Bob S
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Bruce, this has very little

Bruce, this has very little to do with the Hammonds or the Bundy's and everything to do with government overreach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE

Bruce Libby
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Bob do not disagree,but it

Bob ,I do not disagree,but it seems like it really is a Bundy show,sequel ?
The only plausible immediate thing that could happen is everyone stand down and
return home.
This isn't going to accomplish anything meaningful.

Just taking what Bundy says they want ,what needs to be done to accomplish it , so it solves the problem ?
They want locals to manage it. What locals ? Do locals want that ?
The obvious answer is the gov. walk away , as wrong as they might be , that shouldn't happen either because it will not solve a thing IMO.
I guarantee if Feds. were out of it and local control etc. happened, w/in 2 years and I am being optimistic the very same
ranchers would be right back at it over similar issues.
The best argument at this time for local control of situation is Bundy go home since he isn't local !

Abacus
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The only plausible immediate

The only plausible immediate thing that could happen is everyone stand down and
return home. ~ Bruce Libby

To what? The BLM is forcing them off their land. From Sheriff Mack: It is the federal government that keeps shutting everybody down. And it is the federal government that has shut down 53 ranchers in Clark County (Nev.) alone, except for Mr. Bundy. He's the 53rd. He's the last one standing.

This isn't going to accomplish anything meaningful.

The purpose is visibility. You know know about it whereas you didn't before. Now you have a greater understanding of what is happening with the BLM overreach.

Just taking what Bundy says they want ,what needs to be done to accomplish it , so it solves the problem ?
They want locals to manage it. What locals ? Do locals want that ?

What needs to be done? Stop the BLM from starting fires and destroying property (yes, the very same fires they accuse the Hammonds of) and let the Bundy's/Hammond's/other ranchers who have lived and managed the land well for decades and centuries keep doing what they have been doing.

I guarantee if Feds. were out of it and local control etc. happened, w/in 2 years and I am being optimistic the very same ranchers would be right back at it over similar issues.

And I guarantee, based on past history, that is NOT what would happen. These people are not carpetbaggers, they have been on that land for over 100 years and until now, you'd never heard of them. These aren't some Occupy Wall Street cretins, they are ranchers who make a living off the land, and until the BLM came and changed the rules on them, illegally I might add (look it up), they never bothered anyone. What insight and special knowledge do you possess that makes you say they will do anything else, based on their longstanding history.

Before you make future statements, perhaps you should do some research and educate yourself as to who these people are. I have known about them for years and DONE the research to determine if they were loudmouth criminals or actual honest ranch owners. Your posts full of ignorance shows you have not done any research to determine the same.

But that is what is desired. Gonzalez ,Ruby, Waco they are getting to be old and worn
rhetoric.

Funny, Sheriff Mack (former Arizona Sheriff who has known the Bundy's for over 20 years) doesn't seem to think they're 'old and worn rhetoric'.

While [Sheriff] Mack said he does not agree with Ammon Bundy's actions, he told Cook that the media is wrong to "brand and label Ammon Bundy as a nut extremist." Mack said that he worries the current standoff may escalate into another Waco or Ruby Ridge because of the federal government's desire to save face, adding that government orders were given to kill protesters during the standoff between the Bureau of Land Management and Cliven Bundy in Bunkerville, Nevada in 2014.

David Allen
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Now just a minute. The

Now just a minute. The ranchers and other protesters keep acting as if they own the land. That land is MY land, just as much as it is theirs. The last I knew, a landowner - in this case the federal government - gets to establish and enforce the rules. Don't like it? Don't use my land. Grazing rights are established by federal law, and the BLM enforces the law. Got a problem? Call your senator or representative. Don't grab a gun and take over my building.

Bruce Libby
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Thank yOu Abacus you just

Thank you Abacus you just made my point, Sheriff Mack!
They should go home to him your right!

Spider
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“The last I knew, a landowner

“The last I knew, a landowner - in this case the federal government - gets to establish and enforce the rules.”

The federal government does not own the land in question.

The federal government is prohibited by the constitution from owning land…..except the 10 square miles in Washington DC where the white house sits, and some Forts and Arsenals.

The constitution prohibits federal ownership of land….except the maximum of 10 square miles for “…..the seat of the government of the United States…..”

The federal government does not own the land in question.

The federal government does not own the land ‘managed’ by BLM.
Reference US constitution: Article 1, section 8, clause 17:
‘To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular
States , and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over tall Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards and other needful Buildings;…’

If you repeat a truth often enough, the people will believe it.

One more time….The Federal Government does not own the land in question. The land in question is owned by the people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE

Bruce Libby
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Spider the rhetoric comment

Spider the rhetoric comment wasn't about the Bundys' .

Abacus
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Bruce, the geographic

Bruce, the geographic location doesn't change a thing.

David Allen, their grazing and water rights predate the BLM and even the Feds. Do some homework on the issue.

Bruce Libby
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Abacus

Abacus
I bet neither does this type of action , and as I said ,I doubt if change was made it wouldn't be satisfactory
to those involved , in some form or another.

Yes, geography does make a difference. Yet for all the concern this impacts on the locals and their
rights to live without the drama.

David Allen
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Abacus, It doesn't take much

Abacus, It doesn't take much homework to figure out that the land in question belongs to all of us and is managed by the federal government on our behalf. (Saying that the federal government doesn't "own" the land is an exercise in semantics, but I'll play along). Our representatives in Congress and their designated agency, the BLM, get to decide who uses the land and how it's used. Ranchers are given grazing "rights", as long as they pay the pittance they are charged and follow the rules. Those rules are in place to protect the land and to allow the public - that's me - to use the land as well. In Oregon, they've taken over a building in a Wildlife Refuge. Get it? Wildlife? Refuge? Open to the public? If a rancher misuses the land or doesn't follow the rules, he has to pay the price.
The courts have concluded that Federal grazing permits/leases are revocable, amendable, non-assignable ten-year licenses to graze that do not convey property rights. Consequently, permittees are not due compensation whenever their grazing privileges are reduced or eliminated.
So get the heck off my land!

Ugenetoo
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Yes Komrade, the collective

Yes Komrade, the collective owns it all............................

Rebecca
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Is this becoming the incident

Is this becoming the incident that Obama is trying to stage?

My question is "Why are FBI agents lurking around a military installation?" Clearly, being military, the FBI has no business there unless called by the Adjutant General of Oregon. This isn't Alice in Wonderland anymore, it's more like a cheap detective novel and the provocateurs are Federal employees.

Oregon Fire Chief Catches FBI Agents Posing as Militia – Quits His Job in Protest

This week, Harney County Fire Marshall Chris Briels resigned after discovering undercover FBI agents posing as militia members near the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, which has been the site of a standoff for weeks now. According to Briels, he found FBI agents who were impersonating militia members lurking around the town’s armory. When he inquired about the undercover operation with county Judge Steve Grasty he was told to back off.

Just before this discovery was made, there were reports of people who looked like militia harassing locals, which is uncharacteristic of the protesters who initially assembled at the refuge. It turns out that these militia members suspected of harassing locals were actually undercover FBI agents.

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/oregon-fire-marshall-resigns-exposing-u...

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/oregon-fire-marshall-resigns-exposing-u...

Bruce Libby
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Was the armory on fire or

Was the armory on fire or anything else ?

Vikingstar
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'Yes Spider, you're right.

'Yes Spider, you're right. AMG actually stands for "Alinsky's My Guy"'

Well, at least you're finally admitting it...

Rebecca
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I didn't read that Bruce but

I didn't read that Bruce but why should that matter. My take is that a man of appointed or elected responsibility (I don't know which it is out there) spotted 2 individuals where they shouldn't be, suspected something was up , followed his suspicions rather than call and make a possible false report. The man is obviously trained to find hidden problems else he wouldn't be in the position of responsibility he was in. He utilized his public bought and paid for knowledge and found 2 rats in the kitchen so to speak. And NOW HE"S the scapegoat. I don't think so. I think he stopped an atrocity before it happened.

But it would really be nice if a more complete story could be told to begin with.

This from Drudge

FBI Agents Weren't Posing as Militia, Ex-Fire Chief Clarifies
Miscommunication whips up worries about infiltration.
Ryan Bundy talks on the phone at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., Sunday, Jan. 3, 2016. Bundy is one of the protesters occupying the refuge to object to a prison sentence for local ranchers for burning federal land.

Ryan Bundy talks on the phone at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore. Bundy is one of the protesters occupying the refuge to object to a prison sentence for local ranchers for burning federal land.
By Steven Nelson
Jan. 14, 2016, at 5:47 p.m.

An allegation that undercover FBI agents were caught posing as militia members in southeast Oregon splashed around the Internet this week, but the story’s purported source says he made no such claim.

Chris Briels, who recently resigned his position as Harney County fire chief, says Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore, whose Wednesday press release sparked concern about a throwback to FBI infiltration and dirty tricks against activists, must have misunderstood him.

Fiore’s release said Briels had determined “men posing as ‘militia’ were the FBI.” Briels tells U.S. News he did indeed catch undercover FBI agents in small-town Burns, near where armed protesters are occupying a federal wildlife refuge, but that they were not posing as militia.

“They weren’t posing as anything other than dishonest people,” he says. “They were perceived as militia by the locals, but they weren’t posing out there with a shirt that said ‘I’m militia.’”

I didn't hear this explanation on the yesterdays video. Did anyone else? It sounds a bit like duck and cover.

MORE HERE: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-01-14/fbi-agents-werent-posing-...

Bruce Libby
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And so it starts.http://news

And so it starts.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/15/3740249/first-members-of-bun...

Yes, I understand this is all part of the conspiracy /plan to go to store in a stolen vehicle(because they didn't bring enough supplies).
Brilliant execution of plan !

I need to go to supermarket today,please list your vehicles I can come steal , to do so with.

Empirefalls
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BL , any vehicle with a

BL , any vehicle with a Bernie Sanders bumper sticker would do.. All private property is public property in the commie world of Sanders.

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