Did RCV deliver on its promise?

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mainemom
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Did RCV deliver on its promise?

Janet Mills and Jared Golden both won pluralities and went on to win their party's nomination by RCV.

There were 131,330 Dem ballots for governor.

Mills had 62,959 in the 4th round win. That's 48% of starting ballots.

So RCV did not give us a majority preference on the D side, contrary to the sales pitch by RCV advocates.

Numbers from wikipedia

In short, the result could have been known on election night, without the extra days of effort on the part of everyone involved with the ballot gathering and tabulating.

Are we calling this a positive test of statewide RCV?

anonymous_coward
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The result could have been

The result could have been known as soon as the votes were tabulated the first time, if someone had used an algorithm a first year computer science undergrad could have written.

Also, you can't compare the total votes, since I'm sure many people didn't include either of the two last candidates in their ballot (effectively abstaining from the runoff vote).

Al Amoling
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Does you last statement mean

Does you last statement mean that you're ok with people's votes being thrown away as if they din't vote at all?

Ugenetoo
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Only "progressive???"

Only "progressive???" democrats could screw up a procedure that has worked flawlessly for almost 250 years.

Matt
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Only a moron would say that a

Only a moron would say that a two party system beholden to special interest dollars that consistently churns out status quo “representation,” and that crowns reps and senators for decades, would say that the procedure works “flawlessly.”

Melvin Udall
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To say nothing of those who

To say nothing of those who can't discern one mechanical part of the process from those whom the people choose, wisely or not.

anonymous_coward
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@Al: "Does you last statement

@Al: "Does you last statement mean that you're ok with people's votes being thrown away as if they din't vote at all?"

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

If I vote for Donna Dion for my first choice (I didn't, I think she was an uppity $15/hour candidate, just using her as an example) and nobody else, when she gets eliminated from the pool it's as if there were a runoff election and I decided not to go.

I have a right not to vote, and by not filling in second/third/etc. choices, I am exercising my right not to vote.

This is not the same as the government throwing my vote away.

Al Amoling
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It certainly is the same as

It certainly is the same as the government throwing my vote away. If you don't want to vote that is your choice but if you vote and your vote is thrown away that is a crime.

anonymous_coward
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@Al: "It certainly is the

@Al: "It certainly is the same as the government throwing my vote away. If you don't want to vote that is your choice but if you vote and your vote is thrown away that is a crime."

If you don't want to "throw" your vote away, then fill out all 8 choices... (or 4 if you're a Republican)

This isn't complicated...

Ugenetoo
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Hey Mattybubbles.

Hey Mattybubbles.
You forgot "racist".

Matt
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I did, didn’t I?

I did, didn’t I?

How about a fried chicken joke? Or another one about cops and rap? Let’s have it.

Melvin Udall
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(No subject)

expat
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(No subject)

Ugenetoo
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No, Mel.

No, Mel.
Mattybubbles is not a hoe.
Those girls have a real purpose in life.

Watcher
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A-C, as you implied in your

A-C, as you implied in your post, if a voter failed to add a 3rd of 4th choice, his vote was thrown out. RCV requires a voter to vote for a candidate he hates or face having his vote dumped. The fact is, the Dem winner did not even get 50% of the votes cast for the position. This is a stupid system which does nothing to help insure qualified candidates get elected. Most people I have talked to are woefully ignorant of the issues and ignorantly vote party line...without knowing squat about what the party stands for.

Al Amoling
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It may not be complicated but

It may not be complicated but I'm forced to vote for an a-hole that I detest. How STUPID is that???

mainemom
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anon said:

anon said:
The result could have been known as soon as the votes were tabulated the first time, if someone had used an algorithm a first year computer science undergrad could have written.

This would only be true if it were possible to effectively transmit the raw data from each voting precinct to a centralized location, in real time, without concern about hacking.

anon also asserted that the total vote count isn't the right measure for seeing if the winner got a majority.
But we had an election. Voters filled out one ballot. The winner's combination of votes tallied up to less than half of the ballots cast.

At least Mills is a fighter. It should be an exciting campaign.

anonymous_coward
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@Al & Watcher: "It may not be

@Al & Watcher: "It may not be complicated but I'm forced to vote for an a-hole that I detest. How STUPID is that???"

If I had a runoff election between Donna Dion and Betsy Sweets, I would stay home, for sure.

I selected neither in my RC ballot, and if it really did come down to those two, I would abstain, and possibly switch parties at that point.

The point is, you have a choice not to vote, and that is not having the government throw away your vote.

anonymous_coward
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@mainemom: "This would only

@mainemom: "This would only be true if it were possible to effectively transmit the raw data from each voting precinct to a centralized location, in real time, without concern about hacking."

This is true. But to propose an alternative, what if the voting data were made public anonymously? An anonymous unique key is generated for each vote, and the results for each precinct are publicly transmitted to the central authority.

If for some reason there is a need to recount, each precinct still controls their ballots (which is no worse than it is today) and could in the meantime transport them to wherever they currently end up.

"At least Mills is a fighter. It should be an exciting campaign."
I'm not really excited, tbh... she does have spunk but I would probably be equally happy with Moody.

Al Amoling
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O yes it is the same.

O yes it is the same.

BlueJay
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Here's a refreshing analysis

Here's a refreshing analysis of it all.

"Bottom line, the new system took longer to confirm the winners, cost more, disenfranchised a significant number of voters, didn’t improve the participants’ conduct and had no impact on the results. Yet voters approved continuing to use ranked-choice for federal and primary elections for the foreseeable future. And proponents of RCV say they’ll now push for an amendment to the state Constitution to allow it in general elections for governor and the Legislature.

Because this state doesn’t have nearly enough bad election outcomes."

http://www.theforecaster.net/politics-other-mistakes-when-reform-goes-wr...

Bruce Libby
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Understanding that there in

Understanding that there in no unbiased view of RCV available here.
Last week being in St. Louis ,Mo. while wife at a convention ,I received some insight of how viewed. While enjoying a cold one in a great pub I talked with a person, who after learning I was from Maine, brought the subject up.
His question was " what in hell is wrong with you people" !
I couldn't really answer sufficiently except to deny agreement with RCV.

Like term limits, Clean Elections,RCV will become another thing that hasn't worked as promised but will make people feel good,
A governor like Le Page is elected by it.

anonymous_coward
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@Bruce: I can't wait until

@Bruce: I can't wait until there is a conservative independent running and RCV causes a conservative to get elected and everybody switches sides.

Bruce Libby
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AC

AC
Party affiliation etc. aside you maybe waiting for the wrong reasons.
Yes,taht could happen,just as it could hazppen to liberals if it was a Bernie situation.
No one benefits from this IMO.

Economike
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I have a right not to vote,

I have a right not to vote, and by not filling in second/third/etc. choices, I am exercising my right not to vote.

This is not the same as the government throwing my vote away.

Here's my objection to RCV:

I'm "allowed" to have a second, third, and so on, choice.

But I'm not "allowed" to vote for my first choice candidate also as my second choice. This action will get my ballot thrown out. Isn't this exactly "the same as the government throwing my vote away?" If Jones doesn't have a second choice but Smith does, why should Smith's vote count and Jones shouldn't?

Ranked choice voting partially but effectively disenfranchises voters with strong preferences. I suspect that RCV violates the principle of "one man, one vote" and will be struck down on constitutional principles.

Bruce Libby
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Well said Economike.

Well said Economike.

anonymous_coward
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@Economike: "But I'm not

@Economike: "But I'm not "allowed" to vote for my first choice candidate also as my second choice. This action will get my ballot thrown out. Isn't this exactly "the same as the government throwing my vote away?" If Jones doesn't have a second choice but Smith does, why should Smith's vote count and Jones shouldn't?"

If there's a runoff, and they eliminate Diane Dion (and she was your first choice, god help you), you wouldn't be able to vote for her again. That's the point of a runoff.... if you didn't eliminate anybody from the runoff election, you'd be voting for the same people over and over again.

anonymous_coward
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Before we discuss this

Before we discuss this further, does everyone understand how runoff elections work?

Al Amoling
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YesI understand how runoffs

Yes I understand how runoffs work. I also understand that RCV is NOT a runoff.

Economike
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I also know how run-offs work

I also know how run-offs work and agree with Al Amoling that RCV is not the same thing.

The political dynamics of RCV - for candidates, parties, and voters - are different and unprecedented. RCV tilts the game toward hidebound politics as usual.

Robert Reed
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For me the problem with RCV

For me the problem with RCV was that it forces me to either leave portions of ballots blank or to vote for someone even as my last choice who I do not wish to see in office at all, and the thought of that person eventually getting my "vote" led me to not support RCV.

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